What Can We Do About Cyberbullying?

Transcript

Transcripts are auto-generated

Madeline (00:02):

I think if we together as the adults can figure out ways to really build our students, our children, up so that they understand that there's more to life than what's happening on these devices, then that'll be helpful.

Natieka (00:17):

Hello, and welcome to School Me, the National Education Association's podcast dedicated to helping educators thrive at every stage of their careers. I'm your host, Natieka Samuels. Today, we're tackling a topic that's become increasingly challenging for educators, families, and students alike, which is cyberbullying. With the rise of social media and constant online communication, bullying is affecting students in new pervasive ways, and schools are often on the front lines of addressing it. Joining me today is Madeline Micou, a middle school counselor with over two decades of experience in education. She's here to share her insights on the realities of cyberbullying, how it differs from traditional bullying, and what educators and families can do to combat it effectively. Thank you so much for joining us today, Madeleine.

Madeline (01:04):

Thank you for having me.

Natieka (01:06):

All right, let's start off with the basics. So, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your current role in education?

Madeline (01:13):

So, I have been an educator, this is my 22nd year in education, I started out as a high school English teacher, and I worked in that area for three years, and then I transitioned to school counseling or a hybrid position, where I was part-time counselor, part-time teacher at an alternative school, and I've been in counseling full-time ever since. So, this is my 19th year as a school counselor. I'm currently serving as a middle school counselor in Ann Arbor, Michigan, and I have seventh graders this year.

Natieka (01:48):

And why did you decide that you wanted to go into education?

Madeline (01:52):

I come from a long line of educators, both of my grandmothers, my maternal and paternal grandmothers were both teachers. My maternal grandmother also became a school counselor as her second career, if you will, within education. And I have aunts, and it's just always been a part of my life watching these wonderful, strong, brilliant women pour into not only their own families but into their communities and their students, and so I was always inspired by that. So, I think it's just a part of my personality and who I am, I love working with young people, and just wanted to be able to make the greatest impact in helping them develop.

Natieka (02:31):

And you said that you started off as a high school English teacher before becoming a counselor, so what inspired you to make that transition, and how do you feel like that experience as a teacher informs your work as a counselor?

Madeline (02:46):

Well, I just completed my undergraduate and my graduate, I just went straight through. So, I will say, I always knew that my end game was going to be counseling. However, at the time, in the early 2000s you had to teach prior to being a school counselor. In our state, of Michigan, I think it was a five-year requirement in the classroom before you could be a school counselor. So, it was always a part of the plan, however, I love teaching English, I love teaching African-American literature, and senior writing, and all of those courses, but I always knew that eventually I wanted to be in a position to help students with their social-emotional development, and just with their post-secondary planning, and just all the things that I get to do as a counselor.

(03:31):

I will say, being a teacher was helpful because I learned how school works, if you will. I saw firsthand what it was like having students with so many challenges, and trying to address and make sure that I've met the need of all of my students within a short period of time while I'm teaching them. And so, it helps me even now in working with teachers to come up with plans and just collaborating to make sure that students are best supported. So, I do feel like it was an invaluable experience to teach prior to being a counselor.

Natieka (04:07):

And so, we're here today to talk about bullying and more specifically cyberbullying. But I want to start off with a bit of defining of terms, as I know that bullying is a term that gets used a lot, especially these days, but the actual meaning might not always be understood by people, it's not just someone saying something not nice to you once.

Madeline (04:36):

Right.

Natieka (04:36):

So, can you explain how we would define bullying, and what makes cyberbullying unique to probably the definition that most people are used to thinking about prior to the internet age?

Madeline (04:51):

Bullying is a term that has become so popular and overused, and it really can be defined as a systematic abuse of power. Typically, you're looking at mistreatment, threatening behavior, aggressive or intentional behavior to harm, but it is typically carried out repeatedly or over time. So, like you mentioned, if a student says, this student said something mean about me, and it happened just one time, would we consider that bullying? Not necessarily. However, if that student A continued to mistreat student B over time, and we're seeing an imbalance of power and some other things, then we would recognize that as bullying. But I think at the end of the day, mistreatment is mistreatment, and so as a school counselor, I understand that even if it happens one time, it still affects that child, the victim. And so, we definitely take it seriously, and try to do what we can to restore the relationship between the students, if possible, or to just even help the student who is the victim to work through that.

(05:55):

But I will say, that bullying, in its truest sense, I believe is that abuse of power that's happening over a period of time, and it's happening repeatedly. Now, with cyberbullying, we're in a new time where we are looking at this mistreatment, this aggression, this intentional negative behavior, this threatening behavior happening over technology. Social media, text messages, websites, but that same intent to harm, to intimidate, and to harass others is just via technology. And so, it's become so much more widespread, right? Because of that, and because of the access now that we all have through the internet.

Natieka (06:37):

As a middle school counselor, how often are you dealing with bullying or cyberbullying issues? What forms they typically take, and is cyberbullying a larger proportion of those problems, or is it equal, or what do you think is the percentage?

Madeline (06:55):

Mm-hmm. I would say at this point it's probably 50/50. And honestly, a lot of the bullying situations are accompanied now by cyberbullying, right? It doesn't stop at school. When I was growing up, you had an issue with someone at school or on the bus, it ended there, and then you just had a little reprieve when you went home, and then you went back to school the next day and it might be waiting on you. Whereas now, when kids go home, they have this access. And so, whatever the beef was during the day or whatever the issue was, the conflict or even the bullying situation, it extends beyond the school day. So, I would say it's probably half-half. We still are seeing true bullying situations, but the cyberbullying is right up there as well. And the bullying oftentimes involves cyberbullying in addition to in-person bullying.

Natieka (07:45):

And so, I think people might have an idea of what constitutes cyberbullying, because I think if we're talking about more of the in-person bullying, we understand that it's probably physical altercations, or name-calling, or other insults verbally to the face of the student, or around the student, but how do cyberbullying issues take shape?

Madeline (08:14):

In a number of ways. I can think of situations where a student shares old photos, embarrassing photos of someone who may have been a friend once upon a time, with a large group of students. You have text messages, the students love Snapchat, they're often forming these groups where they're adding students and even not inviting or asking, do you want to be a part of this group? But they're just adding a number of students, up to 50 or 60 students at a time, if not more, and then on that text thread, making comments about students, calling them names, talking about incidences or other personal things that they might know, or maybe even speculating about a student. We have situations where with air dropping, students are air dropping text messages or photos without permission to other students. So, it can look a lot of ways. And then also the threats.

(09:09):

A big thing now is they're calling one another, and then they'll add other students into the call, and so it can look a lot of ways. But a lot of harassment, sometimes impersonation, where a student may share their login information... This is big. And then, if those two students fall out, or that student still has that information, and they may go into their accounts and send messages to other people. Also, I see a lot of exclusion. So, sometimes students may just purposely hurt other students by excluding them in certain chats, but still talking about them. So, it's taking shape in all kinds of ways, and I'll say, it's constantly evolving.

Natieka (09:51):

Because I was going to ask that, with us all, including students, having constant access to the internet, and social media, and iMessage, and WhatsApp, and everything that keeps us connected in a sense, I was going to ask whether you felt like all of this cyberbullying is, I hate to say a natural progression of old school bullying, but just through the internet, or do you think that it's taking on sort of a different nature, and morphing into something different than what probably a lot of educators now have grown up with and understood?

Madeline (10:29):

I do think it's a progression, but I also think it's morphing into something different, that we need to be aware of and educated on. And it's overwhelming, honestly, because as educators, we have so many things even within our specific content areas that we are focusing on, in terms of educating students, but the time that it takes to sort through all of these pieces within cyberbullying, and each scenario, it can be daunting at times. And then, students know how to navigate these things much better than we do, so they're much quicker, and it's like we have to try to stay informed enough so that we know what's going on. I think it's morphing into something different, and I think, honestly, it's a bit scary just because we see the impact. And even with adults, we see a lot of parents I see sometimes get caught up in some of these conflicts over internet or social media, and it just can spiral out of control.

(11:28):

I do think that we need constant updates, if you will, and education around what's out there, and how to keep our students safe. And so, there is a lot of information out here, but it's important that we continue this conversation and that we talk to kids, because sometimes I go maybe a couple of days and I don't hear anything around the cyberbullying issues, but what I'm finding is that they are still happening. They're happening every day, but students, I believe, are becoming a bit numb in some cases to some of the things that are happening, and that concerns me.

Natieka (12:06):

And often when you are notified that these things are happening, is that information coming from usually the students themselves, the families, or other educators in the building who are noticing what's going on?

Madeline (12:21):

I would say, most times the students share, it's not always the victim. Every year you have students who will be upstanders, they'll come and they'll let you know. They'll say, hey, Ms. Micou, you need to check this out, or they'll come near me and they'll show me their phone, or they'll email me something in private, because no one wants to be known as what the kids call a snitch. And so, they know that something is wrong and that the issue needs to be addressed, and there's a student who may be harmed and they need to be helped, but they don't want to be the one. Which makes sense. So, I would say typically students, from time to time we get families who will reach out, but most times, families, we are informing them of what's happening on their children's devices.

Natieka (13:03):

How often do these instances of cyberbullying involve educators as the victims? And is that treated a lot differently than when it's from student to student, how do you handle those things? Because I know that lots of things can happen that involve the adults in the school as well.

Madeline (13:23):

I can honestly say, I haven't had a lot of experience or situations that involved the staff or the faculty. There are times the students create these pages on Instagram, they're like tea pages, so the latest gossip, and from time to time I'll hear about students talking about a teacher here or there, but it's hard to narrow down who did it, first of all... And that's with a lot of cyberbullying issues. Sometimes you don't know who's behind it. And so, it's difficult to actually address the behavior, but again, if we know who's behind it, we address it, but a lot of times we have no way of finding out.

Natieka (14:07):

I know that this is something that comes to you every day, but are there some examples of cyberbullying incidents that you've encountered that stand out, or are examples that you use when you're actually handling these cases?

Madeline (14:22):

So, one thing that's big right now is students who love to game, they play video games, and they get comfortable with folks in these chats, and they don't know if they're playing with peers, sometimes they're playing with people from across the country or around the world. And I've had a student recently share that someone in a game chat was making threats towards them, and that was a process to work with the family to try to identify and try to block and protect that child. We also have situations where a student was assaulted on a bus, and students took video of that and shared it out with peers. Obviously, that's devastating, you've already been assaulted, and now the video is continuing to circulate amongst peers. Those are two that stand out to me. Situations where inappropriate photos have been airdropped to an entire class during instruction, and of course, trying to figure out who did it. And so, these are just a few examples that just stand out to me as being awful illustrations of cyberbullying

Natieka (15:31):

Right. Now it's like how do you handle that? So, in those different situations, are you taking all different approaches, or do you usually have a formula of how you move through these issues?

Madeline (15:42):

Initially we take statements, we try to get screenshots or as much evidence as we can. I work with my administration to try and process through and figure out who are the players and interviewing students. Obviously, if there are threats involved, we have district protocol around threats. So, there has to be a threat assessment, and that can take quite a bit of time because of the interviews that are involved in that. It looks different every time, just depending on what the situation is. But I will say, the main pieces are just gathering information initially, taking statements, informing families, and also if we are able to identify who the students are, really trying to help them get to a restorative place where we utilize restorative practices and some other things to help them.

Natieka (16:33):

Thanks for listening to School Me, and a quick thank you to all of the NEA members listening. If you're not an NEA member yet, visit NEA.org/whyjoin to learn more about member benefits.

(16:45):

So, on the topic of restorative practices, can you explain a little bit more about how restorative circles or other restorative practices come into play in these cyberbullying cases, and the impact that you've seen from using them?

Madeline (17:00):

It's just so important for students to have a voice and to understand and respect the voices of others. And so, we know that these are adolescents, they're young, they're impulsive, they're not fully developed, and they're maturing, and so a lot of times they're making decisions without thinking them through. And so, we really work hard to help them understand the importance of empathy, the importance of hearing one another, and treating one another with dignity. And so, in my mind, that's where restorative practices come in because it's all about repairing the damage that has been done. Someone has been harmed, and so how can we repair this? And so, that's something that's big in our building and in our district, because it is effective. Because at the end of the day, we help students, we're all human, we're all going through things, we'll have good days, we'll have bad days, but we have more in common than not.

(17:57):

And so, getting students to a place where they can hear one another and really express their hurts, and actually acknowledge what they've done to harm someone else has just been really powerful. So, in the situations where we are able to identify the students... Because like I said, with cyberbullying, a big piece of it is we don't know who's sending what. But when we are able to identify, bringing them to together has been effective in most cases. And even if students aren't able to walk away and be friends, or totally get back to where they once were, I believe just the opportunity to hear and to speak is just so powerful, and it really helps the students in this area of development. It's something I encourage us to continue using, it's less punitive obviously than discipline. And there are some situations obviously with cyberbullying where there are disciplinary actions involved, but I'm always advocating, even if there are disciplinary actions involved, I'm always advocating for restorative circle once the students return, just so that we can try and repair the harm that was done.

Natieka (19:05):

What advice would you give to the guardians, and families, parents, of students to help them navigate and work with their students' online world, and identify potential issues, and balance it with privacy, the relationship that they have with the student, and also just making sure that they're safe?

Madeline (19:28):

I know many districts or communities offer digital literacy courses, there's all kinds of information online, even if your local school isn't offering something like that, universities are offering... Just anything that can help families get together and talk about these issues. Obviously, I would say, to be just vigilant, if you are thinking about, or if your student does have technology in the form of a cell phone, or even a Chromebook, in our district students have Chromebooks and they get in touch with one another via Chromebooks. But I think just understanding the parental controls that are available to us, and just how to keep students safe. We tell families all the time, we understand that you are purchasing or allowing your students to have this device, but it is your device ultimately, right? And so, really empowering families, parents, guardians to get involved, to have different protections in place, to even collect the phone. With something as simple as at dinner time or in the evening, the phone goes right here on the counter, and you can get it back in the morning, maybe. No.

(20:40):

But really just making sure that there are some boundaries and parameters set, and just making sure that communication is open, and that your young people are talking to you about what they're seeing, what they're hearing, what they're experiencing, just because there is so much access. And so, those are the main things I would think, it's just really trying to seek out digital literacy for yourselves, as parents and guardians, but then also for students. And then, applying monitoring tools whenever possible, at the network level, at the device level, and also at the app level. There are all kinds of protections in place to keep young people safe.

(21:20):

And I will say also, I think it's important to get back to some of the basics in terms of extracurricular activities, really encouraging our children to try out, like in middle school, try out for a new sport, go experience a club, getting them involved in other things that get them outside, and moving, and with other individuals in person. And so, all of those things can help to build confidence, awareness, and just the overall experience of growing up as a young person, just getting them out more and away from those screens as much as possible.

Natieka (21:54):

And what are the warning signs that you might ask families to look out for? Because I know that something you mentioned was that it's not always the victim of bullying who might be coming to you because they don't want to be seen as a snitch, they don't want to escalate, even if they need help. So, what are some of the things that families or educators perhaps should watch out for in the behavior of students in order to get a better idea about whether they might be struggling, and when they need to involve you or someone like you?

Madeline (22:30):

I would say behavioral changes, we're noticing sudden withdrawal, mood swings, avoidance of technology even. Avoidance of school, avoidance of friends. All of those things are red flags. Also, physical signs, if your student isn't sleeping well, if you're noting just disruption in patterns in general. If they're typically jovial, and outgoing, and talkative, and then you're noticing a change, those are things to inquire about. Stomach aches, other somatic symptoms, also losing interest in things that they were once interested in. Okay? Maybe quitting teams, or saying, like I said, I don't want to go to school, I don't want to talk to this group of kids that I've always talked with. So, those are some things that I would really look out for. And then, just checking in. I will say a lot of students don't talk about the things they're going through, and some students just keep it to themselves for fear that they may lose privilege, or they may lose their technology.

(23:31):

So, if this is already considered a privilege to have a cell phone, and then I tell my mom or my dad that someone is harassing me, or that there are some things going on that are making me feel uncomfortable, then they may say, you know what, you're not ready for a phone, or they may just take it away. And so, that is something to look out for and think about as well. And so, really, I think as parents, guardians, educators, it's important for us to be super vigilant, to really watch our kids as much as possible to work together as a community, because obviously each individual educator won't see everything, but we really try to encourage our students to find your person.

(24:11):

Who is your person in the school, or who are your people? And who are the people that are trustworthy that you know could talk to? I would hope that they would identify me as one, as their counselor, but there may be other people in the building, their teachers, our lunch mother, our OP, TA, there may be someone else that they have connected with, and we just want to make sure that every student has someone that they could go to in the event that they need support.

Natieka (24:36):

And so, phones seem to maybe be the problem, I think ever since the internet has come out, there have been chats, there's been ways to connect with people, but the fact that something that's always in your pocket or in your hand is always with you, it makes it a bigger problem. So, can you share a bit about, I guess your opinion on phones and students, or your school's policy on phones, and how effective you think those policies are?

Madeline (25:05):

My opinion? They don't need them. They don't need these phones at such a young age. I remember getting into the field, like I said, mid-2010, and maybe a few students had a cell phone. Now, post-COVID, almost everyone has a cell phone in middle school. And if they don't, they know how to work those Chromebooks to the point where they may as well have a cell phone, because they know how to do everything on there. And so, we have a few things, thankfully we have Securely in our district, that monitors the Chromebooks, there are triggers, there are words that they look for, that alerts staff, and that we're able to check. And that's been very useful and beneficial to identify students who are searching things or looking at things that are inappropriate or may even be harmful to them. In our school though, we do have policy where students aren't allowed to have their phones out, and they have a warning, and then the second time you turn the phone into the office, the third time there's a call home and the parent or guardian has to come and get the phone.

(26:08):

And so far it works okay. And there are times where we allow students to get on their phones, but it's just become such a part of our lives that it's just difficult to manage it. I don't see us going back. But I do see that students are getting them younger and younger, and I just think they cause so many problems. Social-emotionally, students struggle to know how to communicate effectively, there are so many things. So, I just feel like they're here, but it's unfortunate, but I think if we, together, as the adults, can figure out ways to really build our students, our children, up so that they understand that there's more to life than what's happening on these devices, then that'll be helpful.

Natieka (26:55):

I think we can all use that reminder, even as adults, that life is outside. But I know that you're just one person, so you don't necessarily have the power to change what's happening in your school, your district, your state, nationwide... But what do you think would be the ideal policy for phones and schools?

Madeline (27:18):

I have heard of some trials where we're bringing cubbies back out at the secondary level. So, when you come into class, put your phone in a cubby, have a seat, on your way out, you get it back. And then next class it happens again and again. That has proven, I think, to be effective, I know a couple of high schools who are trying that out in our district, and so we've discussed trying something or piloting something similar at our middle school. If we can just get students more engaged in what's happening in person, and building them up, and understanding who they are and that they have a purpose, and that now is the time for them to really invest in themselves through education and through the educational experience, I think it will help to create balance between all of the craziness that comes with the internet, cell phones, and devices, and technology in general.

(28:07):

And then, learning just how to use them responsibly is big. But it's not going away, and so we just have to figure out how to help our students and adults use them in a way that is helpful and that's possible. And so, I think there are a lot of things happening in pilots, and I think we have to just keep trying until we figure out what works best.

Natieka (28:29):

So, for anyone listening, which is probably a lot of educators, what are the most important steps you think that they can take to prevent and address cyberbullying in their school community?

Madeline (28:39):

Any opportunity to bring in digital literacy is helpful. I think getting information out to students, to families about what's happening, and what's available in terms of parental controls, and then just how to have an adolescent or a young person and keep them safe on a device I think is important for even PTOs, or administrators, or counselors, or teachers, whomever. If you're sending out a newsletter, just making sure that there is information available to families to help them. In the schools, I think it's important to teach students as much as possible about internet safety, and that should just be a part of what we're doing every year at every level.

(29:19):

And then, also just making sure that we are paying attention to our students, watching, making sure that they have opportunities to participate in extracurricular activities. If there are barriers or things that are keeping them from being able to be on certain teams, or in certain clubs, maybe working to find resources in the community, partnering with community folks to make sure that students have the mentors they need. Because we do have a lot of students who don't have the support they need at home, and they may have a phone, but they may not have anyone who's checking, or anyone who's even able to invest time into those things. So, making sure that if there are students who are underserved or are needing more support, partnering not only with the school community, but also with the community at large to see if there are individuals who could come in and offer positive, safe support for our youth.

(30:15):

I know it's difficult as educators, we have so many things that we're juggling, our own personal lives within our careers, and we've gotten into this career because we love young people, we want to serve them, we want to help. So, it's important I think that we just continue to work together to support our young people because they are just navigating so much. And we see the impact that these issues are having on our youth, and we see their mental health declining, and we see them struggling just to find their way. And so, I just want to encourage us all to just keep going and knowing that we are doing the best that we can, and we are making a wonderful impact, even if we don't see the fruit of it. I think just making sure that we are asking more questions, that we're truly supporting students and that we're making space for students to really express their feelings and to seek and get the help that they need.

Natieka (31:17):

What gives you hope for the future of your students, but just the way that educators and students interact, and how students act with each other? Is there anything that's standing out to you as the point of hope?

Madeline (31:31):

Absolutely, there's just so much beauty in seeing young people develop and come into themselves, and learn, and have the opportunity to learn, and to grow in an environment like a public school. That gives me hope to see, like I said, students who are upstanders, students who have their own personal challenges, but they still will come and seek help for other students that they care about. I just believe in our youth, and I believe in those of us who serve them, and have the opportunity to serve them, and I just know that we all together will continue to do great things.

Natieka (32:08):

Perfect. Thank you, Madeline, for talking to us today, I think this is a really informative episode.

Madeline (32:14):

Thank you so much for having me.

Natieka (32:16):

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